URLLesson Introduction
While you may not relish your walk up five flights of stairs six times a day, think of it as a pre-Huangshan hike training ground. Or the third stage of your triathlon-esque commute home. The way to stairmaster-free nice buttocks. After all, the elevator-less buildings of China were the breeding ground for the likes of Yao Ming and Liu Xiang. So, lift those knees, and get buzzed up to the fifth floor, and listen to this ChinesePod lesson on going upstairs.
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patmetheny says
September 17, 2008
I thought there was a difference when you were supposed to use yao1 instead of yi1. but I guess cpod is saying that either can be used at anytime.
I was in Beijing airport listening to the flight numbers, and kept hearing yao1 all the time, and not once an yi1. I eventually figured it out, but then was wondering why language instructors didn't tell us this would happen. Other instructors kept using yi1.
frances says
September 17, 2008
In China, how many flights above ground level is the fifth floor? In the U.S., the ground floor and the first floor of a building are usually the same floor, so the fifth floor is only four flights up. In many other places, I know that the first floor is one flight above the ground floor. Which system is used in China?
patmetheny says
September 17, 2008
oh, i'm first? where's my bar of gold-pressed latinum? :)
bababardwan says
September 17, 2008
Ken,
I love the format and completely agree with it.Another great feature of CPod.It works for me.I always listen to the audio first and see how much I can figure out for myself without looking at the vocab or dialogue tabs.I only look at them later to consolidate.Eventually I then want to work out the complete breakdown and get a deeper understanding.I agree in not being spoon fed and think an active approach is best.I have discovered the radicals which should help.I knew dian4 was for electricity but didn't know re ti1 which should be easy to remember.The first tone mark looks a bit like the rung of a ladder.Alternatively ,a ladder leads you to a high place [first tone ].
From the audio of one of your podcasts on mobile phones,I found out about yao,but I have now just noticed it is a different character to yi .Is there an explanation of this?
frances says
September 17, 2008
I think that the 幺(yāo) is used for clarity when reciting digits. If you can't hear well, 一(yī) could be mistaken for 七(qī), 7, because the two numbers rhyme. I think it's similar to the reason the American military people (in movies, I don't know about real life), sometimes say "niner" instead of "nine". "Nine" and "five" have the same vowel sound, and could be mixed up if someone can't hear a speaker clearly.
amber says
September 17, 2008
hi pretzellogic et al,
Yes, Frances is correct. Because 一 'yī' sounds very similar to 'qī', in order to avoid confusion when giving phone numbers, room, house or apartment numbers, licence plate numbers, card numbers, etc., in Chinese they use the term 幺 (yāo) for '1'.
This is not done in Taiwan, however, and that may account for why some teachers of Mandarin do not teach it.
patmetheny says
September 17, 2008
Frances, Amber, thanks for the clarification.
jennyzhu says
September 17, 2008
'Stairmaster-free nice buttocks', nice one. I used to live on the 6th floor, elevator-less.
jennyzhu says
September 17, 2008
Frances,
In China, the ground floor is the first floor.
bababardwan says
September 17, 2008
Jenny,
re:'Stairmaster-free nice buttocks'.Who writes the intro's? I have been wondering ever since the Los Angeles episode.I note the intro for that episode was written by a user [ xiaohu ] ,and was wondering if they are all written by users,or if that was a one off contest and they are usually written by CPod.I presumed the latter was true until I just read your comment now [but ? written by another member of the CPod team?].Also,good question Frances re ground/first floor,and thanks Jenny.
chapman3us says
September 17, 2008
Frances,
English is the universal language for international radio communcations. The term "niner" is in common use. It is mostly used by airline pilots and marine operators. If I remember correctly from my amatuer radio operator days. "Nine" was changed to "niner" to avoid confusion with the German word for "no" which is pronounced the same as "nine".
frances says
September 17, 2008
@Chapman3us,
I was surprised to see your statement that "niner" was created to distinguish from the German "nein", not from the English "five". After some Googling, it looks like everyone agrees that it was created for spoken clarity, but the specifics are a matter of active debate. I found sources unequivocally stating each theory. I'm personally more tempted to believe the theory that it was invented to distinguish from the number "five", as this seems like a more likely cause of confusion ("nine" and "five" being the same language and both numbers). Surprisingly, the dictionaries that I checked, including the OED, don't even weigh in, recognizing "niner" only as a noun. Very interesting...
amber says
September 17, 2008
hi babardwan,
I have to confess, I am the phantom intro-writer :)
sarahjs says
September 17, 2008
I love the intros. They're usually quite funny.
So Amber are you going to write any more??
In Taiwan ground floor is 1st floor, which kinda confused me for a week or two. In England it's ground floor, 1st, 2nd etc.
Although in the Breeze Center near ZhongXiao Fu Xing (I think that's right) in Taipei they have a ground floor, below 1st floor (which is street level) I think you can exit the building on ground floor. Very crazy.
chapman3us says
September 17, 2008
Hi Frances,
May I ask, what is your native language? My native language is English. I do not have a confusion with "nine" and "five" even over the radio. That is why I wondering about the differences. I also think it is very interesting. I think maybe we are a little off topic. But, maybe discussing these differences will help us with Mandarin!
chapman3us says
September 17, 2008
Ok Amber,
Which floor of elevator-less building did you live on? There is no shame :)
amber says
September 17, 2008
I live on the fifth floor. I like it, good exercise. Used to live on the sixth with no elevator too! That was a bit much though.
bababardwan says
September 17, 2008
Amber,
So what you are saying is that you are "the ghost who walks"...
changye says
September 18, 2008
Elevator 电梯
Escalator 电梯，自动扶梯(zi4 dong4 fu2 ti1)，滚梯 (gun3 ti1)
Interestingly, in China, both elevators and escalators are referred to as "电梯". My apartment, six stories, has neither. Apartment buildings that have elevators are "respectfully" called "电梯楼" (dian4 ti1 lou2).
dtoronto says
September 18, 2008
I rented an apartment in Wuhan on the 6th floor for one month... it cost 75.00 US.
I was going to the apartment with my wife, and we had 2 over-weight suitcases, and briefcase plus my wife's knapsack.
She saw a group of old men playing mahjong at the corner, talked to an elderly slightly build man, who grabbed the heaviest of the suitcase, and whisked away up the stairs. I told my wife that i would take the second one, but he was already down the stairs before I even had a chance to finish the discussion with her. He was off and away, up to the 6th floor. My wife and I kind of sauntered up the stairs, and we met up with the gentleman on the third floor, on his way down. I told him thanks, but I could carry up my briefcase, no problem.
Total cost for the service? 5 kuai.
i am just amazed at the shape this man was in, he was probably twice my age. In fact, in general, if you ever want to find the best abs on the planet, China has got to be in the top 5, if not first place.
Good lesson.
missworldtraveler says
September 18, 2008
Is this sentence supposed to have NE at the end? Would NE change the meaning?
(Mr. Wang hasn't arrived yet.)
sebire says
September 18, 2008
My legs almost fell off when I walked up Huangshan. But at least I didn't look like I was gonna die like the Chinese people that were practically sprinting to the top. I didn't understand why they were in such a rush. (I have decided that Aussies have a disturbingly masochistic streak when it comes to sprinting up steps - I was practically collapsing up another hill when all these Aussies sprint past going "ooh, I love steps, they're wonderful for my bum")
bababardwan says
September 18, 2008
I know the tones can change sometimes,depending on what is following,but can anyone tell me why shang4lai2 has a second tone on the lai in the vocab section ,and a neutral tone shang4lai5 in both the expansion section and 3rd exercise?
bababardwan says
September 18, 2008
sebire,
So who won;the Chinese [with home ground advantage I might point out ] or the Aussies?
light487 says
September 18, 2008
Thanks again for a great lesson. I won't over analyse this but just allow it to reinforce what I already knew in a different context.
Haha.. I do need to make a comment on the guy though.. his sigh at the end makes me laugh, kudos to the actor! :)
Oh one thing I thought to ask was.. can I say:
请我来上来的。。
qǐng wǒ lái shànglái de..
Please let me come up..
May be in the context of a child asking another child if they can be let up into the treehouse..
frances says
September 18, 2008
@bababardwan,
One of the common way tones can change is in the formation of multi-syllable words. For two syllable words, the tone of the second syllable is less emphasized than that of the first - to the point where it may sometimes be dropped. This is a tendency which varies regionally, and the second syllable tone may not be de-emphasized if there is possibility of confusion. I've noticed too, that when I see a citation that indicates a tone is dropped on a second syllable, the next citation I see for the same word may not reflect a tone drop. Rather than worrying over this, I try to take the inconsistency as a sign that I will be understood as long as my pronunciation is somewhere on the spectrum.
For three syllable words, the tone of the first syllable is generally most emphasized and that of the second syllable least emphasized. I think this is the kind of thing better learned unconciously through imitation than by trying to analyse levels of tone emphasis while talking.
bababardwan says
September 18, 2008
Thanks frances,
Good information.I only noticed actually when I got to the exercises and it marked me wrong for putting a second tone on lai and then I went back and realised that there was a neutral tone in the expansion section [only when I rolled over I think which I hadn't needed to before ].It's comforting to know that I may still be understood whether its 2nd or neutral at the end.Thanks again for your explanation.
greggs says
September 18, 2008
This is my first post here on CPOD..I want to thank all the users that have been discussing lessons. I find I learn as much from the discussion as I do from the lessons and exercises. Also, keeps it interesting.
Great lessons BTW. I started with Rosetta Stone..this is so much better for me.
xiexie
yang_yi says
September 18, 2008
Frances - in China mostly the ground floor is '1' and occasionally just to confuse you its '0' - like in my building.
excuter says
September 18, 2008
Missworldtraveler I would use 了 at the end so it would be 王先生还没到了 (Mr. Wang [still] hasn´t arrived yet.)
light487 why so complecated? I would say 我上来吗
jennyzhu says
September 18, 2008
light487,
Please let me come up is 请让我上来。/Qing3 rang4 wo3 shang4 lai2. 让/rang4 means 'let'.
missworldtraveller,
Do you mean the modal particle 呢/ne？Its function is to state the obvious, emphasise. Or do you mean 了/le? While 了is used to create past tense, it's rarely used in negative form as the action didn't take place. Mr. Wang hasn´t arrived yet is 王先生还没来。
greggs says
September 18, 2008
Jenny,
Does your comment about Le not being used in negative form mean that you would never say, wo bu dao le? It would always be wo mei lai?
Still working on memorizing characters, for now I am still in the pinyin worlds.
Thanks
patmetheny says
September 18, 2008
Jenny, isn't it like 1:40am in Shanghai now (as I write this?) Aren't you working very very late, or are you in a different time zone? Or is someone using your account, and you're not the real Jenny?
sebire says
September 18, 2008
bababardwan, two different hills! Though in all honesty, I think the Aussies would win in a straight sprint up the hill. The Chinese people looked like they were gonna have a heart attack, whereas the Aussies did it for fun (though at the top after the Aussies had sprinted around the summit 3 times, I did see some guy practically collapse into a water fountain).
frances says
September 18, 2008
greggs, you are correct. You would never say "Wǒ bú dào le".
Also, if you are still planning to go, it would be better to include "hái", meaning "still" or "yet", as Jenny did in her example. "Wǒ hái méi dào" would be "I haven't arrived yet".
light487 says
September 18, 2008
@Jenny:
Thanks for the correction :)
I placed the modal on the end to elicit a response from the other person.. I thought that placing "de" on the end served that function. "ma" makes it a question.. but it wasn't really a question.. more of a plea to the other person.
I used lái because of my understand of the sentence used to introduce:
我来介绍一下。。。
wǒ lái jièshào yíxià...
Have I misunderstood this as well?
kien says
September 18, 2008
Hi - on the difference between "yi" and "yao", I notice that "yi" seems to be used as an ordinal measure (e.g., first, second, third, fourth, etc), while "yao" is used as a cardinal measure (i.e., one, two, three, four, five). In Chinese, "er", "san", "si", etc can be both ordinal and cardinal meanings, depending on the context. To indicate clearly that an ordinal measure is intended, a Chinese would say "di er", "di san", "di si", etc (to mean 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc).
Perhaps John can confirm whether my distinction between "yi" and "yao" is correct?
It's interesting that in English, we seem to think about numbers primarily as cardinal measures (i.e. one, two, three); whereas in Chinese, we seem to be taught to refer to numbers primarily in their ordinal form (first, second, third). I say this because a newbie would normally be taught to use "yi" (rather than "yao") to refer to "1". I wonder whether this says something more fundamental about the difference between Chinese and Western world views. Westerners organise the world by counting things (one, two, three), while Chinese organise the world by working out their relative positions (first, second, third). Just a speculative observation. Interested in what others think.
missworldtraveler says
September 18, 2008
I thought the pattern hai mei(you) VERB ne expressed an act that has not yet begun but is about to begin or about to be completed.
Also, can I say, Wang Xiansheng dao le meiyou? to mean, "Has Mr. Wang arrived yet?"
KIEN, what a brilliant theory!
kien says
September 18, 2008
I made a mistake about "er". The cardinal term for "2" is "liang". "Er" is the ordinal term.
Therefore, the ordinal series would be "yi", "er", "san" (first, second, third). The cardinal series would be "yao", "liang", "san" (one, two, three).
xiao_tang says
September 18, 2008
Wow Kien, thats very indepth!
When i need to count i will use "yi" i.e one of those, or one apple.
The use of "yao" comes into play when simply listing numbers, such as a hotel room number or a telephone number.
This might not be the correct reason, but its how my brain works, id be interested if someone could confirm the correct way.
Tom
kien says
September 18, 2008
On reflection, I might be wrong about "yao" as well. A Chinese would say "yi ge", rather than "yao ge" to count. Perhaps the cardinal/ordinal distinction applies only to "er" and "liang". The difference between "yi" and "yao" might require a different explanation.
I need help from a mathematician!
wjefferys says
September 18, 2008
Listening to this carefully, I noticed that Jenny (as well as the actor) prounounced the 'ti' in 'dianti' in a slightly palatalized way. That is, it isn't exactly the rather clear 't' in English, which is pronounced against the front teeth, but instead is a little fuzzy because the tip of the tongue is touching the hard palate just behind the front teeth.
I wonder if this is just a regional thing, or is more generally true for 'ti'? (May not occur before other vowels).
amber says
September 18, 2008
hi wjefferys,
Yes that is true, the 't' in Chinese is a bit softer than the 't' in English. I have noticed that too.
excuter says
September 19, 2008
checkingoutchina says
September 20, 2008
@bababardwan
"The ghost who walks......." *chuckle* good one XD
bababardwan says
September 20, 2008
checkingoutchina,
Thanks.I knew I was being pretty lame [but couldn't resist it all the same after her 2 prior posts to mine ] so didn't go on to suggest that the next video shoot could be of her going up to her Huangshan cave in her phantom suit.I always thougt the phantoms cave was somewhere mysterious in Africa,but I obviously stand corrected.Huagshan seems a very apt spot,being a sacred mountain and all....
bababardwan says
September 20, 2008
sebire,
Regarding the Aussies;that sounds about right.Àodàlìyà jiàyóu ! Mind you,while I know quite a few Aussies who have run marathons,I haven't met any Aussies [let alone over 50 ] who have run 212km in 24 hours as has pchenery from Canada! Check out his post on the Elementary lesson on the Olympic marathon.
bababardwan says
September 20, 2008
sebire,
ps. re:"I didn't understand why they were in such a rush".Yeah.I enjoy jogging myself as well as bushwalking,but I would have thought the idea in going to such a famously beautiful and scenic place as Huangshan was to take in all the sights etc on the way up [and not just at the top] ,which you can't really appreciate if you're watching your step while running.Perhaps some should get some balance by reading "the tao of pooh",though,being a western interpretation,I'm not sure how this book is looked on by Chinese.
sebire says
September 21, 2008
Not all the Chinese people were trying to march up this hill, just quite a lot. The funny thing was that it was a bit hare and tortoise - we'd plod along and eventually see them trying to catch their breath and looking distinctly ill. Maybe they were trying to make the top in time for lunch?
mattwhyndham says
September 22, 2008
Tao of Pooh: one of my favourite books, speaking as a confirmed Poohist. All they have to do is publish it in Chinese as the Pooh of Tao, and they will surely have a winner.
bababardwan says
September 22, 2008
mattwhyndham,
I'm with you on this one.I also loved the "Tao of Pooh" as you may have surmised.I initially read Lao tzu's[Lǎozǐ;老子] Tao de Jing [道德经;Dàodéjīng] which was very interesting and thought provoking,and thus I greatly enjoyed it.It was delightful then to have this original masterpiece reinterpretted in the context of Pooh.As good as it is ,and as accessible as it makes Daoist thought for westerners,I was aware that some critics do not entirely agree with it's interpretation.Still ,I thought it had many wonderful messages that we can learn from.I agree it would be interesting to have it published in Chinese [are you sure this hasn't been done? ] ,and I like the name reversal.
wwolfeld says
September 23, 2008
What's the difference between dao4 and lai2?
In this lesson, "come" or "arrive" is "dao4".
In the Morning at the Office lesson, it is "lai2", as in "She has arrived"/Ta lai le.
Is there a difference?
amber says
September 24, 2008
hi wwolfeld,
Often when a person arrives, in Chinese they use the set phrase “来了” (lái le) to mean, he has arrived; he's here.
You can also use 到 (dào) to indicate you've arrived.
我到了。
Wǒ dào le.
I'm here.
来 (lái) can also have different meanings depending on the context.
Here 来 (lái) definitely means 'to come':
明天你要来吗？
Míngtiān nǐ yào lái ma？
Are you coming tomorrow?
他刚刚从北京来。
Tā gānggāng cóng Běijīng lái.
He just came from Beijing.
Sometimes 到 (dào) also means to go somewhere:
我们到外面吃吧。
Wǒmen dào wàimian chī ba.
Let's go out to eat.
kakyoism says
September 24, 2008
kien:
That was an interesting observation that you made.
I think the point that when the cardinal/ordinal difference has to be made. We Chinese reuse the numerical system, yet by giving it a modification with the "Di" rather than making new words (first, second...), morphing the same counting system from cardinal to ordinal. Given that the difference has to be made in all languages, this is an efficient solution.
A lot of similar reusability strategies exist in Madarin at different layers, most notablly the fact that we don't use verb conjugation at all for expressing tense but use other global ways such as the "了le0" for past tense.
Hope this makes sense.
calkins says
September 24, 2008
I noticed a difference in 上来 shànglái and 下来 xiàlai. I thought maybe it was a typo that lai in xiàlai was missing a 2nd tone. One dictionary had it as a neutral tone and another had it as a 2nd tone.
Is there a reason the 来 in 上来 would be 2nd tone, but neutral in 下来. I guess in the big scheme of things it doesn't matter because everyone will know the meaning.
I loved the crack in the guy's voice in this dialogue...he sounded like a teenage boy on his first date. Probably good that he had to walk up 5 flights!
calkins says
September 24, 2008
To make my above question even more confusing, I just did the exercises. The answer to question 2 (Exercise 3) is shang4lai5 !
light487 says
September 24, 2008
Isn't it to do with the "two fourth tones together" rule? I can't remember how it goes exactly.. but I think it's similar to the "two third tones together" rule where the second one becomes more of a neutral sounding tone, even though it would still be written with the correct tone.. not sure.. sorry.
amber says
hi calkins, Some speakers pronounce the 来 (lái) in 上来 shànglái and 下来 xiàlai as second tone, some as neutral tone. Both are acceptable. But we will amend the lesson to be more consistent. Sorry to cause any confusion!September 25, 2008
frances says
September 25, 2008
Amber, this is probably not an easy thing to do, but given that dropped tones on second syllables are often optional, it would be nice to eventually have exercises that would accept either answer. Consistency is better than inconsistency, generally, but marking a correct answer wrong is confusing.
calkins says
September 25, 2008
Thanks Amber!
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November 20, 2008
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